February 16, 2004

The Fraud of the Winter Soldier
Posted by McQ

Many statements have been made that because John Kerry participated in Viet Nam, he had earned the right to protest the war. I want to say an unequivocal “I agree”. But that being said, I’d agree that ANY American has that right. Dissent is critical to the maintenance of freedom and I’d not deny that right to anyone for any reason.

However, as with any right, there come responsibilities. One of the responsibilities incumbent upon any who dissent is to do so in a PRINCIPLED fashion. It is their right to dissent, but it is their duty to do so responsibly.

THAT is the crux of my problem with John Kerry’s dissent. For the most part it was based on fraud. His dissent was NOT based in truth. His dissent was not conducted responsibly. It was, in my opinion, based on mischaracterization, outright lies, and fraud.

[Much of what I’m going to quote here comes from an excellent book that I urge all to read concerning this specifically and Viet Nam and its veterans in general. The book is “Stolen Valor” by B.G. Burkett. I’ll append “[BG]” after those quotes so excerpted.]

Neil Sheehan, certainly not a proponent of the war in Viet Nam by any stretch, characterized what was going on at that time quite well. Sheehan destroyed the credibility of Mark Lane’s book “Conversations with Americans” by revealing most of the “veterans” who’s “atrocities” Lane quoted hadn’t been in combat or even in Vietnam in many cases :

”This kind of reasoning," Sheehan wrote, "amounts to a new McCarthyism, this time from the left. Any accusation, any innuendo, any rumor, is repeated and published as truth."[BG}

It was, however, Lane’s book which inspired the “Winter Solder investigation”. The major organizers of the so-called “investigation” staged in Detroit in 1971 included Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, Phil Ochs, Graham Nash, David Crosby, Tom Hayden, Daniel Berrigan actor Donald Sutherland and activist lawyer and writer Mark Lane - the same guy who’d already been revealed as a fake. Also deeply involved in the organization of the event was the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) which included John Kerry who was on the VVAW Executive committee.

Kerry hooked up with an organization called Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). Two events cooked up by this group went a long way toward cementing in the public mind the image of Vietnam as one big atrocity. The first of these was the January 31, 1971, "Winter Soldier Investigation," organized by "the usual suspects" among antiwar celebrities such as Jane Fonda, Dick Gregory, and Kennedy-assassination conspiracy theorist, Mark Lane. Here, individuals purporting to be Vietnam veterans told horrible stories of atrocities in Vietnam: using prisoners for target practice, throwing them out of helicopters, cutting off the ears of dead Viet Cong soldiers, burning villages, and gang-raping women as a matter of course.

To reveal the depth of dishonesty present, Al Hubbard, one of the founders of the VVAW and its Executive Secretary, claimed to be an Air Force pilot, wounded in Viet Nam. In fact, Hubbard was never an officer, never wounded and never in Viet Nam. VVAW members Elton Mazione, John Laboon, Eddie Swetz and Kenneth Van Lesser all claimed to have been a part of the Phoenix program in Viet Nam where they routinely killed children and removed body parts as a part of their duty. They were shown to have never been in the Phoenix program nor had they ever been in Viet Nam. And the list of more frauds later found within the organization is mind-boggling.

So this is the organization with which Kerry was associated when he used the “horrible stories” generated by Mark Lane and the VVAW’s “Winter Soldier investigation” as the basis of his Congressional “testimony” later that year, saying at one point:

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” [emphasis added]

Not content with this outright lie, he stated further on in his “testimony”:

”It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country: the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions; also the use of weapons, the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage in the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war, when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions, in the use of free-fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, search-and-destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners - accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam.”

This too is a complete and utter lie. For instance, to pretend that torturing or killing prisoners was an “accepted policy in many units in South Vietnam” is to DISHONOR those who served in Vietnam because it requires one to then believe that gross human rights violations were encouraged by the chain-of-command and therefore committed “routinely”,as a matter of policy, by our soldiers.

As Guenter Lewey pointed out in his book “America in Vietnam”,

"Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. “Those responsible were tired and punished. In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" [BG]

We’ve also since learned that John Kerry’s “impassioned” and “impromptu” testimony wasn’t even written by him and certainly, as he claimed, NOT ‘impromptu’.

And Kerry's emotional, from-the-heart speech had been carefully crafted by a speech writer for Robert Kennedy named Adam Walinsky, who also tutored him on how to present it.[BG]

But that didn’t stop Kerry from mischaracterizing it to Congress:

”I would simply like to speak in very general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification yesterday you would like to hear me and I am afraid because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven’t had a great deal of time to prepare.”

So what about the famous “Winter Soldier investigation” which was the basis for Kerry’s testimony?

The same disrespect for the truth was in operation during the Winter Soldier hearings. After all the atrocities were dutifully taken down, the transcript was inserted into the Congressional Record by Sen. Mark O. Hatfield, who asked the commandant of the Marine Corps to investigate the many crimes, particularly those perpetrated by Marines.

"The results of this investigation, carried out by the Naval Investigative Service are interesting and revealing," said historian Guenter Lewy in his book America in Vietnam. His history of the war was one of the first to rely on previously classified documents in the National Archives. "Many of the veterans, although assured that they would not be questioned atrocities they might have committed personally, refused to be interviewed. One of the active members of the VVAW told investigators that the leadership had directed the entire membership not to cooperate with military authorizes.

One black Marine who testified at Winter Soldier did agree to talk with the investigators. Although he had claimed during the hearing that Vietnam was "one huge atrocity" and a "racist plot," he could provide no details of any actual crimes. Lewy said the question of atrocities had not occurred to the Marine until he left Vietnam. His testimony had been substantially "assisted" by a member of the Nation of Islam.

"But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit," Lewy wrote, "One of them had never been to Detroit in his life." Fake "witnesses" had appropriated the names of real Vietnam veterans.
Lewy pointed out that incidents similar to those described at the Winter Soldier hearings did occur. "Yet these incidents either (as in the destruction of hamlets) did not violate the law of war or took place in breach of existing regulations," Lewy wrote. Those responsible were tired and punished.

"In either case, they were not, as alleged, part of a 'criminal policy,'" Lewy said. Despite the antiwar movement's contention that military policies protecting civilians in Vietnam were routinely ignored, Lewy said the rules of engagement were implemented and taken very seriously, although at times the rules were not communicated properly and the training was inadequate. That's what made the failure so notable. [BG]

Lewey’s findings?

"The VVAW's use of fake witnesses and the failure to cooperate with military authorities and to provide crucial details of the incidents further cast serious doubt on the professed desire to server the causes of justice and humanity." Lewy wrote. "It is more likely that this inquiry, like others earlier and later, had primarily political motives and goals.”[BG]

Although the “Winter Soldier investigations” were thoroughly discredited, they continued to be used to discredit the Vietnam era military, such as in a 1993 “Newsweek” story by Brownmiller about gang rape by soldiers. They also continue to be the basis for the myths and stereotypes which linger, even today, about Viet Nam veterans.

Bottom Line:

Was John Kerry entitled to protest the war in Viet Nam - Yes.

Was John Kerry’s dissent principled and responsible – NO

It was John Kerry’s responsibility to ensure his dissent was both principled and responsible. He instead participated in a fraud and a sham known as the “Winter Soldier investigation” and then compounded that by using the fraudulent ‘testimony’ from that event as the STATED basis of his testimony to Congress. He made no effort to determine the truth of what he testified to, or if he did, chose to ignore the results. He completely failed the test of 'responsible dissent'.

With his testimony he indicted an entire generation of soldiers as war criminals, committing war crimes “not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”

For that, for his total lack of responsible dissent, I find his anti-war activities to have been despicable, reprehensible and unforgivable.

And, because of that patent fraud, and irresponsible behavior, I also find him to be totally unsuited to be President of the United States.



Last I checked, just sitting down and asking a bunch of like-minded people to tell you stories that fit neatly into your own world view didn't qualify as an "investigation". Ok, sure, Wilson thought that was good enough in Nigeria, but he's as big a party hack as Kerry.

Posted by: Tom at February 21, 2004 01:47 PM

Great article! Very informative. Looks like Kerry has always been a liar and a master manipulator. The Democrats will vote for him no matter what. Let's just hope Kerry doesn't manipulate too many swing voters in November!

Posted by: Cecilia at March 4, 2004 12:12 PM

Boy are you guys gullible.

1) VVAW didn't trust Mark Lane. His "expose" about atrocities had alrreday been pilloried by the New York Times in 1970.

2) They vetted the soldiers who testified, checked their DD-214's, and got double and triple confirmation for as much of the testimony as they could.

3) Al Hubbard was NOT a "buddy," or "pal of John Kerry's. Kerry and Hubbard had a major blow up over Hubbard's radical views and his lying about his military service. IN fact, Kerry wound up resigning fron VVAW in part because of Hubbard.

4) The Wointer Soldiers investigations were NEVER "thoroughly discredited."

Hubbard's lie occurred in April of that year when he was on Meet the Press. It had nothing to do with Winter Soldier.

The VAST MAJORITY of the testimony has never been refuted, and some of it was corroborated AT THE TIME by the Detroit Free Press.

Posted by: Heisod at March 14, 2004 01:29 AM

1) If you'll read the article before trying to debunk it, the fact the Sheehan destroyed Lane's credibility with his review in the NYT is PROMINANTLY discussed above. Yet even with this evidence available, the VVWA lent its name to the fraud perpetrated in the "Winter Soldier investigation".

2)No they did NOT vet the soldiers who testified as was found by the investigation the Marine Corps conducted where one marine who's name was used was surprised as hell since he wasn't even there.

A DD 214 is a piece of paper. It has nothing on it which would identify the holder as the person on the form. While the DD 214s may have been legit, that does not mean those using the names on the form were legit.

3)No one said Hubbard was a "pal" or "buddy" of Kerry's. What was said is Hubbard was a FRAUD as were many others in the VVWA.

4)Yes they were ... not ONE of the charges made has ever been prosecuted since there was NO EVIDENCE they ever took place.

Posted by: McQ at March 17, 2004 06:07 PM

I've just watched the film of the Winter Soldier hearings in Detroit. The men in the film are all identified by name. They also appear, to a man, highly credible. Could they all have banded together, some 100+ people, to create a conspiracy of lies? Perhaps. But then there would be far more evidence of this fraud than what pops up on Right-Wing sites like these. If checked several sites by Googling 'Winter Soldier' and come across much criticism of Kerry, all citing the same arguments, sources (Lewy book, Burkett book) and taking the same quotes from these sources all of which as assertions without evidence attached. So, how many fakers were testifying at Wintersoldier, Lewy uses the word several, McQ here has it down to one. Do we have any names. You'd think that a Vet who had been proud of his Vietnam service, and then had his identity stolen by some hippie, would be up front and center telling the details of the story, getting his good name cleared.

Go to Amazon, and check out the user reviuews of Burkett's book. Most are accolades from conservatives. But there are a dozen or more from combat veterans who think the thing is a crock of shit. A lot of time we don't discriminate between Vietnam era veterean, Vietnam veteran, Vietnam combat veteran, Vietnam infantry/marine combat veteran. So most Vietnam Vets did not come back psychollogically scarred. I believe it. But what about the boys that did the grunt work, who carried out the orders to shoot anything that moved, who looked the Vietnamese in the eye as they killed them? All a natural part of a 'just' war, eh?

The Wintersoldier film was completely repressed by the way. No distributor or network would touch it, and this was before these rightist attack books came out against it. It's on VHS but hard to find. (I suppose the readers here think there's a Liberal Media Conspiracy. What a joke!)

Now that Reagan's and GHWBush's Top Anti-Terror guy has turned on Bush, I've never seen such spinning in all my life as the right wing pundits try to discredit this guy.
Dubya dropped the ball on Osama to pursue a pre-determined vendetta against Sadam. World terror is undiminished, and US troops are dying daily. In his testimony before Congress Kerry asked "Who will be the last man toi die for a mistake?" The question today is who will be the last US soldier to die for a lie?
With all your 'pride in support of our military' you are doing nothing but getting more of our soldiers killed, and creating the seeds of hatred that will fuel more terror.
The Vietnamese are a remarkable people. Vastlytoutgunned, they kicked out sorry asses out of their country, and then, within a generation. basically forgave us for all the shit we did to them. I do not think the Islamic fanatics will be so flexible or pragmatic.

Posted by: djtet at April 1, 2004 05:04 AM

To answer your first question ... yes. The one you say I cite proves that one of those who you thought was so credible WAS a lie. The exeception proves the rule. Couple that with the fact that most of the VVWA leadership were frauds and you can see how frauds would have no problem with other frauds making the points they want to make.

I was an infantry platoon leader in Vietnam. I can state catagorically that I never saw or participated in anything like those people described, nor do I know of anyone who did. To me, someone who'd been right where they claimed to have been, I found their "testimony" to be uncredible.

Now you may think its fine for someone to claim you were part of some sort of military which routinedly murdered 200,000 Vietnamese a year. I don't, especially when the facts and my experience just don't even come close to supporting the assertion.

As for "kicking our ass", the US military never lost a SINGLE major engagment with the VC or the NVA. We kicked ass for 10 years and we kicked it hard.

But the anti-war crowd and politicians helped win a communist take-over of the south as surely as if they'd been a part of the North Vietnamese regime. We know, for instance, from documents and testimony provided by a GRU Colonel who was in charge of the program that the USSR funded much of the anti-war movement. We also know, from their testimony, that our POWs were regularly treated with propaganda concerning the anti-war movement, to include specific propaganda about John Kerry.

The BG Burkett book is VERY well researched. If you've gone to the trouble to dig up this tape, go to the trouble of getting and reading the book, instead of relying on Amazon reviews.

I'd also recommend you read my analysis of the interim 9/11 report. I've read the entire thing and commented on it ... I'd have to ask if you've done the same. For the life of me, I found nothing which supports your assertion that "W dropped the ball". I did find a mountain of evidence, though, that Clarke and the Clinton administration spent 8 years essentially doing nothing, in the realm of counter terrorism, but talking about it.

Posted by: McQ at April 1, 2004 08:44 AM

"We know, for instance, from documents and testimony provided by a GRU Colonel who was in charge of the program that the USSR funded much of the anti-war movement"

Oh brother... got a link or source for THAT one?

Jeez some people will say anything eh?

Posted by: scroff at April 6, 2004 02:55 AM

It sure gets tiresome, having to do homework for folks like you, Scroff.

"To understand what really happened we should consider the statements of Col. Stanislav Lunev, a high-ranking Russian defector to the United States. Lunev worked for the GRU, which is the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Soviet (now Russian) General Staff. According to Lunev, the GRU believed itself responsible for North Vietnam's final victory. In Lunev's book, "Through the Eyes of the Enemy," he says that his GRU instructors and superiors would not directly claim credit, but "they strongly implied that the GRU was responsible for the Vietnamese success."

How was this success supposedly achieved?

According to Lunev, the GRU and KGB "helped to fund just about every antiwar movement and organization in America and abroad." This funding, said Lunev, was provided "via undercover operatives or front organizations." More amazing still, Lunev claims that the GRU and KGB "had a larger budget for antiwar propaganda in the United States than it did for economic and military support of the Vietnamese."

In other words, Russia's antiwar propaganda campaign against the American effort in Vietnam had cost the Kremlin over $1 billion. And look how well it worked. As Lunev recounts in his book, "it was a hugely successful campaign and well worth the cost. The antiwar sentiment created an incredible momentum that greatly weakened the U.S. military."

That was the result of a Google search of GRU+Colonel+anti-war. Not that difficult, huh?

I suspect you weren't really that interested in the truth of the matter, just wanted vent a bit. Just for the record, I do may best to use info that's been vetted.

The link in question can be found "here". Use the Google search criteria above and there are plenty more.

Posted by: McQ at April 6, 2004 08:09 AM

Nicely done McQ.

"We have 19 of 23 officers who served with [Kerry]. We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief,"

Tomorrow there will be a press conference in our nation's capitol where these people will go before the PUBLIC. Note they aren't gathered in DETROIT privately.

"What is going to happen on Tuesday is an event that is really historical in dimension," John O'Neill, a Vietnam veteran who served in the Navy as a PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) boat commander, told CNSNews.com. The event, which is expected to draw about 25 of the letter-signers, is being organized by a newly formed group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.



Kerry should have never spoke out on the President's military service record. Apparently he still thinks with the same flawed logic that he did during the Winter Soldier witch hunt.

Posted by: Target at May 3, 2004 07:49 PM

Mr. Kerry is a man of conscient. He participated in an activity that was wrong and he spoke out. We all should respect him for that.

The Iraq abuse have pictures, Vietnam autrocities have sworn statements. Personally I take sworn statments over pictures. You can disputes certain statements with semantics but still 3 millions Vietnamese died.

If you don't think there are autrocities in Vietnam visit those villages where Agent Orange are drop and hold those deformed 3rd generations childrens in your arm, they live in pain each day. Plenty of people still gets hurt by unexploded cluster bomb as well.

Vietnamese can careless about communist or capitalist all we want is independent. We had ask the US to return our independent but US want us to be a French colony, uncle Ho say no so we fight.

US weapons contractor can careless about freedom for Vietnamese, they need a war so they can sell their wares. Without the lobbying by US weapons contractor there won't be a Vietnam war. And the last thing they want is one side to win that is why the war was so long.

Iraq will be the same once weapons manufactured and defense contract make enough money and US public have enough with the payment (dollar+lives). America will lose another war.

The US is no longer the leader of the world, Mr Bush had change the country into an international bully.

Posted by: UncleHo at May 25, 2004 02:33 AM

I'm a Vietnam veteran. Unlike most, I was decorated in combat. And unlike most of the few of us who actually heard shots fired in anger in that war, I came back with a profound sense of my responsibilities as a citizen to try to tell the truth.

Here's my simple little truth: The only person who ever 'spit' on me was a self-identified Republican businessman, in the airport, while I was in uniform, about to fly home. He called me a "drug addict and a coward" and said that "people like me were losing this war."

I have never forgotten that. I see that man's face in the news everyday.

Some of us served, saw hazard, came back and told the truth.

Some of us were REMFs, chickenhawks, or worse.

I know which is which, and so do you.

Posted by: John Hubenthal at August 21, 2004 07:04 PM

VERY interesting stuff. All of the MSM criticism of the SVfT seems to revolve around the sources of their funding and the motivation of their funders. One wonders if anyone has studied who might have benefited by funding the bogus "Winter Soldier Investigation", especially considering references to the Soviet GRU spending over a billion dollars on antiwar activity....??

Posted by: Patrick at August 26, 2004 09:50 AM


Posted by: ed at August 28, 2004 04:07 PM

Your article is a bunch of b.s. designed simply to discredit Kerry. While he leaves alot to be desired, you just seem to be a Karl Rove puppet. You should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating this garbage.

Posted by: Tony K at September 5, 2004 10:56 PM

"Agent Orange" Causes birth defect's and deformities now? Amazing. All it is, is a defoliant, made of gelled fuel (naphtha).

There are no top secret wonder chemicals in the stuff. the only deformity you will get from it is if you happen to get burned with it. This "babies born with defects" crap is total B.S.

Posted by: Nathan at September 6, 2004 07:17 PM

For years I tried to tell everyone who was willing to listen, about the official and defacto policies of our government that were against the Geneva Convention. They were in fact war crimes. I testified before Congress, before the U.N. Human Rights Commission, at the Winter Soldier Investigation, at public hearings, at the Philadelphia Naval Base Criminal Investigation Department, and at the Pentagon. We spoke out against the POLICIES of our government, that were in violation of US law as well as International law. We never spoke out against our fellow soldiers. After all they were our friends, family members and neighbors. No one has ever challenged my statements, nor has anyone ever proven that I have made any untruthful statements. From my experiences as an infantry veteran, I was deeply concerned about my fellow soldiers in Vietnam being killed, or coming home severly injured. I wanted the war to come to an end, so that the destuction and madness in Vietnam would also come to an end. I lost many friends in Vietnam. Some were fellow soldiers and others were friends that I grew up with and knew from an early age. Earlier this year (2/2004), I returned to Vietnam and visited the old basecamps and battlefields from my year in Vietnam 35 years ago. It was reassuring and very healing, to experience the peace, that is the reality of today's Vietnam. Almost no one in Vietnam talks about the "American War." To them it is ancient history. It is certainly sad to see so many of the old wounds being reopened and the old debates argued once again. In 1971, the members of VVAW were looking for a way to help put an end to the war, and bring peace to this country, as well as Vietnam. The members of VVAW that I knew were good people, with good hearts, that were trying to do the right thing. I have no regrets about working for peace. I still know many VVAW members today. All of them are very proud of their efforts in working for peace. It's time to put the Vietnam debate behind us. It's time to debate the current issues of today. And, let the chips fall where they may.

Hoa Binh
John Beitzel, Vietnam Veteran
4/21 Infantry, 11th Bde, Americal Division. 1/1969 - 1/1970
Member - VVAW 9/1970 - 9/1971

Posted by: John Beitzel at September 12, 2004 10:07 PM

John Beitzel, how exactly do you know what the official policies of the United States government were? And how could you possibly know what the "defacto" policies were?

Your concern for your buddies' suffering in Vietnam was poorly demonstrated by your participation in the WSI and your membership in VVAW. You did more harm than good.

John Hubenthal: my father came back from Vietnam in 1972 and was threatened with physical attack by a group of peace-loving flower children at the Oakland airport. He believes that the only reason he wasn't attacked is because there were eight soldiers together, and only about a dozen of the erstwhile assailants. However, they did shout obscenities at him and his fellow soldiers. My father is a well-adjusted, contributing member of society who never suffered from PTSS as a result of his Vietnam experience, nor from his Korean War experience.

And even with an SBI top-secret clearance, he was not privy to the "defacto" policies of the government.

Posted by: Ken at September 29, 2004 08:06 PM

Re: Ken

"my father was threatened with physical attack by a group of peace-loving flower children"

Let's think about that for a moment. Excuse me


Posted by: LC at October 18, 2004 04:24 PM

My first brother went to Vietnam in 1960 as an advisor. I went in 1972 as a paramedic. He died three weeks after I arrived. We talked about the war and what was going on. I was scared, he was hardened by the past, but he was my brother.

I learned to keep my head down, dont stand up & still for more than the count of 3, and pray. I also learned that the war was as varied as there were units, places and actions. Some were probably really bad..mine was as normal as could be expected.

With regard to what Kerry tried to do and his purpose..let me say this. He can't speak for all Vets because he did't talk to them all. He can't relate a few specific incidents against the general RAF of those who served..front, rear, or hiding in there tents. It was bad. Millions of men, divided in purpose, holding guns..someone's going to get shot or tortured. Thats war.

Take your high school class. Reflect on all the different people in it. Preps, jocks, greasers, troublemakers, peaceniks...in the draft..they all go to war. So it makes sense that in a fox hole, mess hall or in formation these same guys with the same disposition are holding guns and being told to fight or giving orders to fight. The war and its environment affect each of us differently. If someone asks me how I felt about the war..I want it to be me that has that say..not someone who didnt stand beside me.

Thank god for the volunteer army. I am sorry for my mother that my brother never came back. I am proud of him and for all of us who served. I am more proud of some than others. John Kerry dug his hole...let him dig out of it. And if you are not a Vet than stay the hell out of the discussion.

Posted by: Jim at October 19, 2004 10:38 PM

Jim, I just read you post and was very touched by it. I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. I can relate to your feelings and those of your mother. Nothing is worse than losing a child. I highly respect your service and you wanting to speak for youself. This whole article has been very enlightening to me. I had read little about the WSI, but had heard the many quotes on TV. I believe that everything Kerry did and said was aimed at one purpose and that was for political gain. He is TRULY unfit to be our president. Thank you for you service to our country.

Posted by: betty at October 27, 2004 12:18 PM

Can anyone direct me to irrefutable evidence that
kerry said, regarding alleged atrocities, "We all did it."

I read the Winter Soldier Congressional transcript..can't find it..

John Armour refers to the quote here(link below) in paragraphs 15 17 and 19

thanks for help arguing with LLL on another thread..

Posted by: ahoymate at October 28, 2004 07:01 PM

Back on September 6, Nathan wrote:

"Agent Orange" Causes birth defect's and deformities now? Amazing. All it is, is a defoliant, made of gelled fuel (naphtha).

There are no top secret wonder chemicals in the stuff. the only deformity you will get from it is if you happen to get burned with it. This "babies born with defects" crap is total B.S.

Posted by: Nathan at September 6, 2004 07:17 PM


Agent Orange: code name for mixture of 2,4,5-T (2,4,5.-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid; 545.4 Kg/m3) and 2,4-D (2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid; 485.1 kg/m3), altogether weighing 1 285 kg/m3; a herbicide; associated with the (2,4,5-T moiety is the impurity dioxin (2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p- dioxin).



The most toxic form of dioxin was a contaminant of Agent Orange, a defoliant used during the Vietnam war. Exposure to Agent Orange has been associated with birth defects and miscarriages as well as cancer and diabetes. A new study of a South Vietnamese city shows a high level of dioxin in residents and suggests that once dioxin enters an environment, it remains a persistent source of contamination for several generations.



Posted by: Robert at October 29, 2004 04:44 PM