QandOQuestions and Observations |
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I think the phrase "evolve in their thinking" is appropriate, and necessary. As human nature stands, I simply don't see that it's possible. I do understand the concept of anarchism, and the difference between the misunderstood anarchy and anarchy as you have defined it. I simply don't see how they will remain fundamentally different. Who punishes violations? If me (and my tribe) are violated/threatened, how will we defend our rights? Based on human history, we will do so individually when we can...and collectively, when we must. So, of course, the reprisal will be collective. Or, worse, the violators will begin the violation as a organized "power". And who has the right to enforce those violations? Or to determine what constitutes a violation? Even Objectivists cannot agree on objective reality and the definition of rights. Surely, the world is not going to come to universal agreement. But...even if they come to close-enough agreement, such that a proper structure can be established to allow an anarchic society...what happens we the general public demands more security? After all, "power" wins every time. And when sufficient "power" is applied, an anarchy becomes nothing more than a democracy at best...and despotism, at worst. It will take quite an evolution. Posted by: Jon Henke at April 12, 2004 06:55 PM |
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"I think the phrase "evolve in their thinking" is appropriate, and necessary. As human nature stands, I simply don't see that it's possible." I always imagine two people in the middle ages having a similar conversation with one of them saying "Representative republic? As human nature stands, I simply don't see that its possible. The only model that fits human nature is monarchy." Admittedly, A/C is utopian in its vision, especially as we view our world now (we still have feudal monarchies for heaven sake), but then the only consistent thing in our history has been change. There's little evidence that we'll remain static and even less that our thinking will stagnate. Couple that with technology we can't even imagine yet, and we may certainly find the ability and the will to do precisely what I'm suggesting and make it work. But unless you can sort of see how that evolution would work (i.e. you can't jump from the welfare state, who's institutions you live with to a anarchist society who's institutions you can only imagine) and the steps necessary in that evolution to "change thinking" and "evolve institutions" to the point I suggest, then they'll remain something "unworkable" in your head. That's not to say we can't talk about them, but I'll again point to the fact that Nozick consumes an entire volume doing so and still doesn't answer everything. Suffice it to say that much of the success of such a model lays with capitalism, at least in my opinion, and not just as an economic engine, but as a social system (based in individualism and rights). It is through capitalism (i.e. the anarcho/capitalist ideal) that anarchism stands its best chance of future success. I'd recommend the Nozick book if you haven't read it Jon ... he speaks of the "protection associations" very early on. You might find his thoughts interesting in that regard. Anyway, my goal here was to define anarchism in a more positive and useful way than it is usually done. I've hopefully done that in such a way that we can talk about some of your questions at some later date. To do so now would be to jump a bit further ahead than we should since it would leave some of the foundational arguments unstated before jumping into the details based on them (rights, indivdualism, capitalism, etc). That usually leads directly to confusion, backtracking and then, well, further confusion. Posted by: McQ at April 12, 2004 10:11 PM |
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In my thinking, the most pressing issue in regards to individuals collectivizing and coercioning other individuals via government, rather than accepting the freedom of individual sovereignty, or anarchy, is fear and ignorance. Fear is fed to individuals via governmental laws and regulations, which lead individuals to "feel" they cannot defend themselves from possible injury unless there is a law protecting them. What individuals do not grasp is that the law does not protect them, it only denies individuals the right to protect themselves through acceptance of a false sense of security. Ignorance, is self induced, and fear is the appetizer which causes individuals to gorge on it. Anarchy requires individuals to think, governmental rule, does not. I do not think it requires an evolutionary process to eliminate the fear which could lead to an anarchistic life. I think it requires a willingness to admit individual ignorance and a thirst to think for yourself. When individuals are fed information and encouraged to think through the information themselves, then the hobbles will be removed and striding to freedom can begin. Posted by: John Venlet at April 13, 2004 09:27 AM |
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John Venlet: Fear is fed to individuals via governmental laws and regulations, which lead individuals to "feel" they cannot defend themselves from possible injury unless there is a law protecting them. I disagree. How does a law (or regulation) against murder or thievery create a “Fear” within the individuals that did not already exist? The “Law” is simply a proclamation of the morality and values of the Society. It is the societies way of saying that if you express this output (X) then we (i.e. Society – the other individuals banded together in common purpose) will express output (Y) as the response (i.e. the “punishment”, the negative reinforcement designed to prevent occurrences of X). John Venlet: What individuals do not grasp is that the law does not protect them, it only denies individuals the right to protect themselves through acceptance of a false sense of security. Hmmm … What individuals do not grasp is that the law (against rape) does not protect them (from rape), it only denies individuals the right to protect themselves (from rape) through acceptance of a false sense of security. Is that what you believe Mr. Venlet? Sounds like a bunch of incoherent nonsense to me. I’d say that the Law against rape is Societies way of communicating that if you rape someone (action-X) then the Society (as a whole) is going to respond by taking away your freedom and incarcerating you for a very long time (action-Y). Kind of the same way as The Laws of Physics communicate that if you touch a hot stove burner (action-X) it will burn you (action-Y). John Venlet: Ignorance, is self induced, and fear is the appetizer which causes individuals to gorge on it. Anarchy requires individuals to think, governmental rule, does not. You mean where: Think = have Faith that there are no ultimate consequences for action. John Venlet: I do not think it requires an evolutionary process to eliminate the fear which could lead to an anarchistic life. I think it requires a willingness to admit individual ignorance and a thirst to think for yourself. When individuals are fed information and encouraged to think through the information themselves, then the hobbles will be removed and striding to freedom can begin. Yet to hear you talk I would have thought that Anarchy was the default state? I mean … do animals form “governments”? Do you consider animals “anarchist”? Why not? Do you ever coerce your children Mr. Venlet? Do you decree rules and regulations that your children must obey under threat of punishment? Perhaps you should start practicing what you preach at home as a “first step towards a greater anarchy”? Let me know how it works out … Posted by: The Serpent at April 15, 2004 03:56 PM |
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