May 05, 2004

Catch a tiger by the tail...
Posted by Jon Henke

Elliot Fladen writes a fascinating couple posts about his experience at an event featuring Rachel Corrie's parents....

Took a study break last night and went to the event that I posted about earlier. Rachel's parents were very good. Slow, hypnotic speakers, well trained to handle criticism. They spoke movingly about the need for not mere words in the quest for social justice, but rather action, which Rachel's sponsoring group, the International Solidarity Movement (or ISM) accomplishes. They spoke of the need to look at the blood on the hands of both sides in this conflict, not just the Palestinian side. They humanized those that suffer (at least on the Palestinian side).
[...]
I quickly got sick of this charade posing Rachel as a non-partisan peace activist. So I decided to pin her parents down with this question.

"Mr. and Mrs. Corrie - it means a lot to me to have both of you come here tonight and speak of the need for direct social action over mere words. Too often in our generation, those that would seek to make this world a better place give themselves contentment with the pat on the back of mere words when they should be acting. With that in mind, you pointed out earlier that we should pay attention to the actions of both sides in this conflict. I wholeheartedly agree, and wanted to press you on how your late daughter or even the ISM has engaged in direct non-violent action, as opposed to mere words, to restrain the Palestinian side from its violence, since both clearly had the Israeli side covered."

Their faces went from smiling at the beginning of my question (bait to get them listening) to shock at the end of it.

Read the whole thing, then scroll up for another post on the topic. Look, I'm sympathetic to the loss Rachel's parents suffered. That's a terrible thing I wouldn't wish on any parents. But let's not pretend that Rachel Corrie died trying to stop the violence. She died while trying to stop only the violence that got her all worked up. The rest of the violence? Well...that's not her problem.

Which, of course, is Israel's dilemma...it is their problem.

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Comments

Do you condone an American's murder because you disagree with her politics?

Posted by: Jadegold at May 5, 2004 11:24 AM

You know, you're pretty well-known for moving the goal posts, but these goal posts aren't even on the same field.

Non-sequitur alert!

Posted by: McQ at May 5, 2004 11:45 AM

To answer your question, JG...no. Thanks for asking.

Posted by: Jon Henke at May 5, 2004 12:04 PM

Hi Jade,

It all depends, of course. Hypothetically, how would you feel if US citizen David Wayne Hull, Imperial Wizard of the KKK, were killed while fomenting armed and violent rebellion among white farmers in Zimbabwe displaced by the gov't land-redistribution policies of Robert Mugabe?

Posted by: Pouncer at May 5, 2004 12:05 PM

We're equating Ms. Corrie with the KKK, are we, Pouncer? That difference aside, Ms. Corrie wasn't "fomenting armed and violent rebellion," was she?

McQ: No moving of the goalposts at all. You disagree with her politics--and that's fine. It doesn't excuse her murder. One of the lessons conservatives have to learn is that just because you're against a certain policy--it doesn't necessarily follow that you support an opposing policy.

Posted by: Jadegold at May 5, 2004 12:22 PM

Jade: I'd agree with you a) had she been murdered and b) if I were a conservative.

But since you're incorrect in both instances, it appears we have nothing upon which to base agreement in this case.

Posted by: McQ at May 5, 2004 12:41 PM

Hi Jade,

You may construct whatever equations you like. _I_ was trying to find such an extreme example we might share a perspective ... If Hull and Mugabe don't suit you, would you please attempt to answer the question using an example of your own? Do you condone the killing of Americans if the politics are right? Perhaps the plight of the Palestinians justified Abu Abbus in his killing of Leon Klinghofer?

Posted by: Pouncer at May 5, 2004 02:05 PM

Look, nobody likes to see dead americans or the grief of their parents. At the same time, I don't like seeing parents parading the misguided causes of their kids as holy just because their kids died in support of them.

Posted by: elliot fladen at May 5, 2004 03:11 PM

thank you Mr. Fladen...

I only wish more 'journalists' were as eloquent and pointed with their questioning on both sides of issues surrounding the Palestine/Israel debate...

thanks again...


satan...

Posted by: great satan at May 5, 2004 04:45 PM

if I were a conservative.

Please, McQ. are you going to say you're an independent? Or are you going to tell me you're a libertarian? You are aware, of course, there's no such thing.

Do you condone the killing of Americans if the politics are right?

Of course not. Had Rachel Corrie died carrying a suicide bomb, she'd be wrong no matter the politics involved. However, acts of protest or civil disobedience simply don't merit the death penalty.

And, frankly, the Israeli practice of bulldozing the homes of the families of suicide bombers is counter-productive at best and criminally stupid at worst.

Posted by: JadeGold at May 5, 2004 07:19 PM

Heh ... Jade, what I'm aware of is you don't think there's 'such a thing', but then you think there's a vast difference between fighters and interceptors, you think our soldiers have been indoctrinated to belive Arabs are 'sub-human' and you think PETA is to be taken seriously.

Why in the world would I care if you don't think there's "such a thing?"

Posted by: McQ at May 5, 2004 07:35 PM

Heh....all in one day, Jade tells us that Dale doesn't know what he does for a living, McQ doesn't know what his political ideology is, and PETA has good PR.

Seriously, he should take this stuff to the next open mic night at the comedy club to see how it goes over. Cause it's killin' me.

Posted by: Jon Henke at May 5, 2004 07:53 PM

There is no such thing as a libertarian; it simply doesn't exist. Now, you are free to call yourself anything you wish--you can call yourself a Santa Clausian, if you want--but it doesn't exist.

As for Mr. Franks, he is wrong. I didn't tell him he didn't know what he purports to do for a living--I did, however, correct him on a few points where he erred.

WRT PETA; yes, they have outstanding PR. The evidence? More vegetarians and the number is increasing every year. A number of prominent law schools now teach courses in animal rights law. If their PR is so bad, you'd expect fewer vegetarians and the notion of animal rights law to be nonexistent.

Posted by: Jadegold at May 6, 2004 08:48 AM

Heh ... whatever you say, Jade ... I'm not sure how you'll handle the fact that simply don't believe you.

Declarations, such as yours, are simply opinion with no weight, since, as I'd think you'd understand, you are not the final arbiter of what does or doesn't "exist", especially in terms of ideologies.

To declare otherwise is simply blatant intellectual fraud.

Posted by: McQ at May 6, 2004 09:31 AM

Well, I'm not entirely convinced that JadeGold is a real human, and not simply a Random Logical Fallacy Generator, so......

Posted by: Jon Henke at May 6, 2004 09:36 AM

[quote]And, frankly, the Israeli practice of bulldozing the homes of the families of suicide bombers is counter-productive at best and criminally stupid at worst.[/quote]JadeGold
It seems to be a common refrain that whatever action Israel takes to stop its citizens from being killed is either counter-productive or illegal. There does not seem to be anything Israel can do, short of rolling over, that is considered acceptable.
As an aside, Corrie was not killed when a suicide bomber's house was bulldozed.


Posted by: Odd at May 6, 2004 09:39 AM

Odd: You're correct ... she was killed kneeling behind a pile of dirt (and out of the view of the operator of the bulldozer) which had been pushed up by a dozer engaged in clearing an area suspected of being mined.

Jon: if in fact your theory is correct, its a very good program. Must be beyond the beta testing realm.

Posted by: McQ at May 6, 2004 09:54 AM