QandOQuestions and Observations |
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The truth is that at the time of this incident Kerry was an officer in command (OinC) under training, aboard the skimmer using the call sign “Robin” on the operation, with now-Rear Admiral William Schachte using the call sign “Batman,” who was also on the skimmer. from Chapter III of "Unfit for Command" I want to hear from Schachte directly.
Posted by: gagarin at August 20, 2004 02:59 PM |
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gagarin: If you're all sitting in a 3 man boat, why do you need call signs? If one of you is on a Swift boat and the other is on a skimmer, THEN you need call signs. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 03:37 PM |
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From the article: The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts. "Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." Thurlow in the Washington Posts parrots this "Kerry probably wrote it" line too. No doubt after intense coaching during the indoctrination session. Did Thurlow corroborate his own medal or submit a contrary battle report? Posted by: Wm D at August 20, 2004 03:50 PM |
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Good question McQ. Batman and Robin were both on the skimmer per the Swift Vets. Posted by: Wm D at August 20, 2004 03:52 PM |
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WmD: Apparently you missed the part where Jim Rassmann wrote Kerry up for the Silver Star for that action? That's all the corrorboration needed. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 03:56 PM |
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Gagarin: I read the account and you're correct. It says Scahacte was on the skimmer and Voss was in charge of the PCF. That is definitely an inconsistency in that I've not seen anywhere but there where 4th man was on the boat. Of course, it wouldn't surprise me if it were true (Kerry never having been on a mission before) but it seems Runyon and Zaldonis would have remembered the 4th. Seems I got that part wrong in regard to the skimmer. However, note that both Zaldonis and Runyon cannot confirm they were under fire. Also note that Voss was in command of the PCF in support so there were indeed other eyes on the mission and any fire that ensued. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 04:11 PM |
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McQ: If you're all sitting in a 3 man boat, why do you need call signs? i do not know. but SBVs claim he was on the boat. e.g. in letter to TV stations they write: Unmentioned in Kerry's Tour Of Duty version are the actual surrounding facts. Kerry, Lieutenant William Schachte, USN, and an enlisted man were on the whaler. Seeing movement from an unknown source, the sailors opened fire on the movement. There was no hostile fire. When Kerry's rifle jammed, he picked up an M-79 grenade launcher and fired a grenade at a nearby object. This sprayed the boat with shrapnel from Kerry's own grenade, a tiny piece of which embedded in Kerry's arm. i do not know what to make of all this
Posted by: gagarin at August 20, 2004 04:20 PM |
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Kerry made a fatal mistake per Drudge. He just filed an official FEC complaint alleging Bush is in charge of the SwiftVets. Now Bush proves he has no control of it, making Kerry look like a whiner, and then Bush files at least of his own to counter. 1 regarding MoveOn, one regarding The Media Fund. And what a whiny prick fuk Kerry is. Posted by: shark at August 20, 2004 04:22 PM |
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as to who wrote after action report for March 13 incident it has to be Kerry since all distances are measured in meters. not yards, feet or nautical miles - meters. Kerry's European education gives him up IMHO Posted by: gagarin at August 20, 2004 04:26 PM |
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gagarin: Interesting. Now to me it makes sense to have a seasoned officer go with a FNG. Act an advisor but let the junior officer, in effect, command so you can see what he's made of, etc. And the two callsigns make sense if he and Kerry were to communicate with the PCF commanded by Voss. Good eye on the inconsistency. Why does no one recall Schachte? According to the letter you quote, one or the other of the enlisted weren't on there. Both claim they were. Definitely needs to be clarified. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 04:29 PM |
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McQ said: "Secondarily, it doesn’t address any of the points brought up in “Unfit for Command” concerning Kerry’s activities after he left Vietnam. It is those activities which form the nut of why these guys think Kerry’s not fit to command." Those on the right who have complained about Kerry's war record have done so on the basis that he is making his war record the overarching theme of his campaign. Kerry, however, has not made his post-war activities the over-arching theme of his campaign. So these activities do not really form the nut of why the right-wing has taken issue with Kerry, at least if you take them at their word. More to the point, Kerry was not in command of anything after the war, so how could his activities show he is unfit for command? (Indeed, given Bush's history as a failed business man, the 70's showed Bush can't run a hot dog stand, much less a country.) Now, you can say that by calling himself and others war criminals to stop an illegal and misbegotten war was the wrong way to go about doing it. But to the extent it had the effect of ending the war Nixon could not figure out how to win, the means justified the end. What burns me though is how many of these guys previously have sang Kerry's praises. Each one of them is pathetic for jumping ship and becoming Bush's shill. The NYT has a good graphic on the subject today.
Posted by: mkultra at August 20, 2004 04:49 PM |
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here it is: In Bob Novak's column this morning he says he spoke to two people who were on the boat when Kerry got the first Purple Heart, Zaldonis and Runyon. http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=4835 Posted by: gagarin at August 20, 2004 04:54 PM |
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mkultra: "these guys" are not "the right-wing". these guys are vietnam vets. Posted by: gagarin at August 20, 2004 04:58 PM |
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mkultra: So since Kerry also hasn't made his 20 years in the Senate a part of his campaign, can they not talk about that? He sure didn't show any leadership during that time period and he wasn't in command of a darn thing. Does that mean its out of bounds? BTW, Kerry jumped ship first, in 1971. Gagarin: Interesting. We'll have to see what Schachte says when and if he comes forward. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 05:01 PM |
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OK, so Kerry got the idea of return fire from Rassmann who was too busy submerging himself to notice that the other swift boats had ceased firing since there was no one firing back and were calmly assisting the disabled vessel? Posted by: Wm D at August 20, 2004 05:02 PM |
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WmD: Precisely ... good for you. You see you can't get a Silver Star unless there's hostile fire (real or otherwise). Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 05:06 PM |
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What a bunch of assholes -- somebody should have told Rassmann on the trip back or cutting up back at base that there really wasn't anyone firing at him. Posted by: Wm D at August 20, 2004 06:19 PM |
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Mkultra More to the point, Kerry was not in command of anything after the war. Your correct, but as a member of the Naval Reserve he was still subject to the UCMJ. Example I was a witness to one and a bailiff for another Court Martial. Both were "weekend warriors" that reported on board for their one weekend a month. As it happened a random drug pee-pee test was done both weekends. Based on their positive results they were both dragged back to the ship (a month later) busted, fined, and tossed out of the military. Question, when Kerry attended "Peace Talks" that included reps for the N Vietnamese, and was still a member of the Reserve, did he violate the UCMJ. Posted by: Marc at August 20, 2004 07:57 PM |
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Beautiful work, McQ, as has been your co-bloggers'. My one tiny quibble is with your inference that "O'Neill gave [Corsi] the information and Corsi put it in the proper wording." We don't in fact know precisely what role Dr. Corsi took in writing Unfit for Duty, but O'Neill has described him as someone who helped edit and organize. As anyone who's seen O'Neill in the last couple of weeks can decide for themselves and as I can definitely confirm from first-hand observation after cross-examining O'Neill as an opposing expert witness in a 1992 jury trial John O'Neill, first in his class at Texas Law School in 1973, law clerk to Justice Rehnquist, doesn't need anyone's help to put things in "the proper wording." Although he's not an eyewitness to any of the events of Kerry's combat career, O'Neill knows the lingo and knows the circumstances from having served in the same unit, and indeed commanded the same Swift Boat, for a longer period than Kerry himself served and within a matter of weeks after Kerry shipped back stateside. And O'Neill is a genuine courtroom star who is well capable of writing powerful, precise prose. Whatever Dr. Corsi contributed to the book, it would, I think, be a mistake to assume that he was anything remotely like the kind of "ghost writer" who most career politicians use as their co-authors. Re Rear Admiral William Schachte, O'Neill is quoted in a lengthy interview today, again, as saying: I am absolutely certain that Schachte was on the boat. I know it from multiple sources. First of all, I know it from Rear Admiral William Schachte himself, the former acting Judge Advocate General of the Navy. Secondly, I know it from other crewmen who were available to testify that Schachte was on the boat. Third, I know it from the commanding officer of the unit, Commander Grant Hibbard, who detached Schachte for the purposes of commanding the boat.... I believe that Admiral Schachte will ultimately come forward at his own time and own his own pace to testify publicly about exactly what happened. No courtroom lawyer of O'Neill's caliber would make this prediction, repeatedly, without being sure he could produce on it. Remember, folks, we're still in Act I of a multi-act drama. Mkultra: Surely you're joking about the NYT's "good graphic on the subject" of the Bush-Rove connection and the SwiftVets, aren't you? Lemme give you an example of how strong those connecting lines are from personal experience. One of my former law partners is Richard Ben-Veniste, lately famous from the 9/11 Commission. The NYT's standards would therefore put me in the heart of the Clintonistas. Never mind that I voted against Clinton twice or that I'm one of those evil Texas Republicans who's contributed ($25, plus indirectly, whatever my blog's TypePad bandwidth surcharge is gonna be for this month) to the SwiftVets. I guess the line goes from Ben-Veniste, to me, to Karl Rove, huh? Posted by: Beldar at August 20, 2004 08:51 PM |
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Beldar: Thanks for the kind words. They're appreciated. I characterized Corsi based on how he described himself and his role in an interview I heard. I also heard his apology in the same interview. I also agree with your point about Schachte, but again, until I see or hear the "proof" I'll have to maintain that it remains a inconsistency which needs clearing up. Posted by: McQ at August 20, 2004 09:07 PM |
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About Getting Distracted I have spent about 50 hours over the last 10 days following Kerry 68/69 on about 20 blogs, plus news sites. One one end of the spectrum I have followed blogs like Atrios, Josh Marshall, Brad DeLong and MediaMatters, etc. On the other, I have followed Q&O, Captainsquarters, PowerLine, Slings and Arrows, Mudville Gazette, et al. Almost without exception, the anti-Bush blogs cannot discuss the possibility that Kerry may have told half-a-dozen different versions of just about every event of note during his Vietnam service. What they can do is spew vitriol about BushLiedBigOilHaliburtonNatGuard. They do not have the moral courage to admit there is an issue, much less address it. The conservative commenters on these lefty sites have been considerably more civil, and have made plea after plea to have the lefties engage on the question of Kerry's multiple stories. No dice. On the conservative blogs, commenters talk the nuts and bolts of the breaking stories, track down leads, every blog I've followed. Now, to be sure, they take great delight in the discomfiture of Kerry, but for the most part avoid simply spewing CowardLiarArrogantClimber, except in one general circumstance: upon provocation by lefty trolls. And that brings me to my point. The vast majority of commenters to conservative blogs who are themselves clearly anti-Bush, are there merely to vandalize. They appear to desire nothing more than to tear up the room, distract other folks from passing information and leads. I see it here. This is more than a tired "Do not feed" plea. I'm suggesting that people not respond to an obvious provocation. Not to keep things nicer (that's merely a pleasant fringe benefit), but to keep us from getting distracted or disrupted. Now, if all we were here for was to hear ourselves type, it wouldn't matter. But this seems a fairly serious blog, with fairly serious discussion. The same snarling from the same louts just needs to be ignored: they want us to spend our time on them, not Kerry. Posted by: Jumbo at August 20, 2004 10:20 PM |
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These "later intelligence reports" would seem to be the major obstacle to the swift-vets version of the #3 boat incident.The NY Times article is the first I've heard of it; is this part of the Freedom of Information request they're said to have made? Posted by: david53 at August 21, 2004 12:08 AM |
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gargarin quotes the SBVT letter as saying, Kerry, Lieutenant William Schachte, USN, and an enlisted man were on the whaler. So the SBVT also agrees there were only three people in that boat. Not four. Three. So, let's see. Kerry says it was him, Runyon, and Zaladonis. Runyon says it was him, Kerry, and Zaladonis. Zaladonis says it was him, Kerry, and Runyon. That's three. They too are firm about the number three. They also agree with each other that the three were Kerry, Runyon, and Zaladonis. Now who does the SBVT say was the lonely "enlisted man"? Runyon? Or Zaladonis? Or some amalgamation of the two? And why would Kerry AND Runyon AND Zaladonis all have such clear recollections of the incident if one of them actually wasn't there? And why would they all have agreed, for lo these many moons, that Schachte wasn't there? Did they engage in a great conspiracy 35 years ago, in preparation for this year's controversy? If so, we should put Kerry in charge of our nation immediately! Anyone who can foretell and prepare for situations 35 years in advance has skills of prognostication that put every intelligence agency and think tank to shame. Posted by: Raven at August 22, 2004 10:09 AM |
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